Ever present desire to protect the girl

Protect me~

I have actually been thinking a lot about a seemingly random exchange between (initally) two people…two on my blog.  So over here ( https://eruditeknight.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/men-are-inherent-givers-women-are-inherrent-consumers/) check the comments.  What essentially happened here was a argument between two people Sophia, a woman, and Lu Bu, a man.

It is important to at least read some of their comments so you get a general feel of the argument they were having.  Essentially it was over another female named MK who she said she liked being submissive, and that real females should not mind being submissive.  Lu Bu congratulated her on ‘getting it’, Sophia was surprised and somewhat appalled that a girl would want to submit to a guy.  It devolved into at times some pretty humorous attacks on each other, however notice what was happening here: a girl and guy fighting…then watch what happened as the argument went on.  Watch how when others got involved whose side was taken.

Was Lu Bu ‘meaner’ than Sophia, yes, probably, but the others jumped to her defense BECAUSE SHE WAS A GIRL.  She was not defended because her points were somehow more valid, or in need of defending, it was because a big scary man attacking a poor girl and the white knight brigade (composed of females in this case!) had to ride to save the girl.

Truly think about this, because it is likely if you were involved in this your personal egos may be in the way right now, but reverse the roles.  Lets have them make the exact same argument, but now its Empress Lu Bu and Tarnished Steve, Lu BU is now a girl and Sophia a guy, making same arguments (because the defense was never about the points, it was about a guy attacking a girl) no one attacks Empress in this position, after all who would attack a ‘girl’?

Back to the argument at hand, lets take a different look, what if Sophia was the meaner one here, calling him a ‘disingenuous bastard’ and telling him he must have a small dick and cant get any etc, would ANYONE have been like ‘Sophia you are being mean to him’?

Fuck no!  I would wager, because I KNOW, that they would still attack him merely because they were antagonist to each other.  That is the way the world works, in everything from small arguments to domestic violence, the girl is always right, the guy is always wrong.  You can debate this until the end of the earth, the fact is, in domestic violence the women’s word > then the mans, and the man is going to jail.  Why is it ok or somehow empowering for a girl to slap a guy ‘to put him in his place’ but to even touch a girl = bye bye see you in jail for the guy.  In any smaller argument the guy will be labeled ‘argumentative’ or ‘mean to the poor girl’ or anything similar that excuses the girl and lambastes the guy.

Society (meaning guys and girls) do NOT defend the guy in a guy vs girl fight.  EVER.  A girl can be beating a guy INTO THE FUCKING GROUND and ‘oh he must have deserved it’, but a guy even has an argument with a girl and the whole world turns against him.

My girl readers here ‘get it’ more than the typical female, thats why what happened here was ironic (in that it still didnt matter) and instructive of how ingrained it was.  Even our allies in the fight against feminism still have these default programs in their brain.

Think about what happened here, because you have just proved everything I have been saying since this blog started – that society in general will default to the female.

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41 thoughts on “Ever present desire to protect the girl

  1. Strange, just yesterday on a different forum I called a woman in idiot and a troll. This after she expressed herself idiotically and trollishly in response to several men.
    I have been involved in political discussion on the Internet for a long while EK. I don’t jump to defend women but often do speak my mind if someone is expressing themselves in a particularly egregious or insulting way.

  2. Upon further self reflection, I’d say I tend to be harder, not easier, on women than men in political discussions. They annoy me more. There are some women out there with voodoo dolls and my name on them I’m sure. Es

  3. I usually use a male name when commenting on forums or while playing online games. Other than my blog, every avatar/name of mine is unmistakably male.

    Why? The reasoning is twofold.

    1. I won’t have to worry about “being protected” as you point out. While I truly think that Liz and Sasha were just tired of reading insults, I am constantly afraid of people saying exactly what you say here…Namely, that the only reason anyone would defend me is that I’m “female”. As it is, I don’t think of Sasha and Liz as my “white knights” since I’d already decided and proclaimed my desire to just stop fucking around with a “discussion” that was going nowhere.

    2. Notice how Lu Bu refers to me. I’ll not repeat any of the terms here, but I find it noteworthy that he couldn’t continue our conversation without using insults and name calling…something I never resorted to. Despite the fact I kept my tone pleasant (if reserved), and consistently wished him good day/good night, he could not do the same for me.

    This is what happens when a “female” disagrees with a male online. It doesn’t matter if it’s on a large matter of importance or a quibble over terms…With a man’s name/avatar, I’m argued with on the basis of my points. With a woman’s name/avatar, I’m called ugly, unlovable, a bitch, so on so forth til it’s no longer an argument, I’m just being insulted by people who have no clue who I am or what I believe. Should I respond in kind (calling someone a “dick”, for instance) it’s simply used as “proof” that I’m a feminist/liar/overly emotional bitch. Can’t win for losing.

    Also, EK, I’d like to point out that while I was a bit surprised, I was only “appalled” because of the type of submissiveness I’ve seen in my life. Take a look at my comment in regards to this: Mk herself said that was NOT what she considered submissiveness, and thought that nobody should be treated as I’d seen. Her type of submission…while still not anything I’d do willingly…was really not so bad, especially since she wants to live that way. As I said before, *I* would never be in that sort of relationship (though it helps that I don’t want to marry), but if both partners find it agreeable I’m not going to speak against their decision. I would expect others to respect *my* decision to be egalitarian with my FwB as well…which obviously didn’t happen, despite the fact it affects nobody here.

    And yes, I’ve supported and spoken out for men (or at least people with male avatars) online. After all, I consider myself a man…why *wouldn’t* I defend them?

    • “With a woman’s name/avatar, I’m called ugly, unlovable, a bitch, so on so forth til it’s no longer an argument, I’m just being insulted by people who have no clue who I am or what I believe. Should I respond in kind (calling someone a “dick”, for instance) it’s simply used as “proof” that I’m a feminist/liar/overly emotional bitch. Can’t win for losing.”

      I’ve experienced the same thing.

      • Hey Liz.

        Yeah, I figured. It’s been talked about on a lot of forums, and some bloggers have even done experiments of their own. I’d need to find it, but one man decided to test this theory and made a female username on a forum he used a lot…but didn’t change his writing style. Immediately he noticed that people who he thought of as “online friends” were taking his words completely differently and strangers wasted no time in cussing him out and spitting on his ideas.

        It’s a weird phenomenon, and I don’t want to sound like a whiny kid about it. But I truly hate that having a female name makes people think they can just insult you and your beliefs all day long. EK touched on the idea of “People Rushing To Protect The Woman”, and I’ve seen that before.

        But let’s flip this around: If I had said the same exact things, but with a male username, would Lu Bu have called me names and insulted my personality/traits? Maybe…But I’d bet a paycheck that he wouldn’t have, and not just because then I’d be an “equal”. I think he simply got so incensed by the idea of a “woman” refusing to call herself inferior that his hindbrain took over for the rest of the conversation.

        Which is pretty sad, since we most likely agree on other things, like the fight for men’s rights in Western society.

        • Sophia and Liz, you guys have some decent points but I truly hope you dont think men have it less hard or ‘eqaully hard’ as women do online. It is NOT even close.

          On gamer sites will you likely be attacked for being a girl? Probably.

          But lets look at the whole deal, for every guy that will attack you there are 10 that would defend you. It it completely and utterly insane how the white knight reflex exists.

          One example: I made a trial post on a forum ‘I hate girl’ and for every 1 girl attacking me it was likt 6+ men saying ‘i couldnt get any etc’

          Or how about another test I ran, on okcupid, where the girl profile gets ONE HUNDRED MESSAGES and the guy doesnt get shit.

          THAT is the inequality men face.

          • Of course, EK. We’re not saying that men don’t have it bad too. Not at all…I’ve seen what you describe, and I’ve also seen how those with male usernames are attacked on “women friendly” forums or feminist websites. I don’t believe any of us are saying men don’t also have it bad in various situations…just that having a female username gets you crap of a different kind.

            To be honest, I’ve never been spoken down to or called names on gamer sites.

    • This is one of the things I love about the internet. You get to choose your own name. Lots of assumptions are made with names. I have chosen a name that is explicitly asexual. The assumptions of gender do make a very real difference in the way people treat you.

      • Exactly. I’d been thinking of changing my own name before this…Wondering if this latest “conversation” isn’t a sign to just do it. A man’s name would suit me better anyhow.

        Genderneutral, have you ever commented anywhere with a more…distinctive…name or avatar? If so, how did it turn out?

      • I agree with this, but so many of my personal observations and knowledge come from direct life experience that I would not be able to share otherwise.
        I am already very protective of my anonymity in the manosphere forums, and reveal only a few fragments about myself. Elsewhere, under a different alias on less “controversial” political debate forums I reveal a great deal more about myself.

      • On one forum I frequented for years, several posters (myself included) had debated for about a year before revealing our images online. THAT was incredibly interesting, because we had all sorts of assumptions about what each of us looked like. One person I assumed was a middle aged white woman based on his politics and expression, was actually a teenaged black guy. Another I thought would look like a nerd was a rough and grizzly looking biker guy with tattoos. I really surprised people too, and they definitely changed the way they related to me online.

    • I actually would disagree with you pretty hard on this one. Playing a girl online is SOOO much easier than playing a guy online. People give you random handouts, help you in dungeons, quest etc.

      ‘Can you help me please~’ and man…do the guys line up to help my little mage girl!!!

      • Interesting. I wonder if the difference is that I don’t ask for help, and I don’t use a female character. I always use a male avatar/character and everything goes fine til I get on a mic.

        Then, hearing a female voice, there’s a sudden cacophony of “boo”s, “make me a sandwich”, “stop using your boyfriend’s account” or (if I kill/beat someone) “bitch, I’m gonna find where you live and rape you”. It’s part of the reason why I stopped playing online and didn’t renew my home’s internet.

        It’s not that their words were upsetting, per se…I just was afraid if I rolled my eyes anymore, they’d fall out of my head. I’m considering getting internet back in January…but I’ve learned my lesson: No talking on a mic.

          • So what you’re saying is that I can play with men online perfectly fine, but when they hear my female voice they immediately use me as a substitute for the women in their real lives who talk down to them?

            I am willing to concede that it’s a good hypothesis, and may be true in some (many?) cases, but is an immature way of dealing with one’s aggression/negative emotions. I’m not saying that anger and frustration aren’t valid emotions, nor do I think men should be “bottled up”. But to threaten to rape or kill a stranger online just because they have the same genitals as the mean girl in your class is a bit juvenile, don’t you think?

            I’d rather receive a PM saying they want to talk about their mood, not be blamed for something I didn’t do.

  4. Sorry EK, you are wrong about this.
    I was not “defending” Sophia, as you put it. She is perfectly capable of defending herself, if she so chooses.

    I was pointing out the irony of a man making pronouncements like “Men are superior in every way” and then proceeding to use insults to demean his opponent rather than addressing her arguments.

    I did not say my piece because Emperor was a man attacking a woman. I said it because he was being an ASSHOLE. And yes, I would have said the same things if the sexes had been reversed and Empress had called Tarnished Steve a dickless mama’s boy instead of a castrating sour bitch.

    It was merely my reaction to seeing your comment space defaced by the venom Emperor was spewing. Normally this is a cool place to discuss these issues with a modicum of decency and intelligence. He was being uncivil.

  5. I’m reminded of the three or so days I spent at heartiste. It was the same timeframe Judgy bitch started posting there, the reason I heard of her blog. The first few exchanges went very much like this:

    JB: Hi everyone! I’m new and it’s great to be around people who think like I do…
    Various participants: Cunt! Cunt! Hamster cunt on a stick!!!
    Bro-knight brigade: Yeah! High fives all around tell her she’s an ugle cunt!
    JB: I have a blog. (other points, considerately said)
    Various participants: So what you suck! Cunt!
    One lone participant (Ferret or something, name escapes me): Wait a minute…this site is good!
    Bro-knight brigade: Well, maybe.

      • Sorry, but I laughed at “hamster cunt on a stick”. 😛

        But yeah, it’s an odd thing.
        On one hand, I get that many of the members of the MRM have been hurt, or have seen the writing on the wall. Guys who have been discriminated against, feel horrible about “being male”, have been rung through the divorce/family court wringer, or are just purely angry about things like circumcision or it being implied that they’re rapists. These are REAL issues affecting our men today, and despite whatever sex I may or may not be…I sympathize and want to offer support and a shoulder to lean on. Not just for my friends…for anyone!

        On the other hand, it’s difficult to do so with the guys who say AWALT, or think any woman who claims to legitimately care for/love the men in her life is only saying that…she can’t possibly mean it. Or worse, that anyone who happens to have a vagina is *necessarily* dishonorable or a liar, even to herself! I won’t stop supporting the men in my life, nor will I stop loving the ones who are true friends or close relatives. I won’t invalidate anyone or their experiences, even if I don’t understand them so long as they are rational. I will always answer any emails/comments that ask me for help or to just listen.

        But by the Gods…it can be so damn difficult to do so when all some men do is call you a cunt for no reason. I *know* that not all men are child molesters like my stepfather, and I *know* not all men are physically/emotionally abusive like my father. If I can acknowledge that, why is it bad for me to ask that others give me a chance to prove *I’m* not like what they’ve experienced from women?

    • BWAHAHAHA. That cracked me up. Not so far off the mark, either. 😉

      I can only take Heartiste in small doses. Him and his commenters exhaust me, both mentally and spiritually.

  6. Lol! That was a great deal of drama. I didn’t see a ton of whiteknighting, and it’s hard to tell if what was being done was warranted or not.

    First, a commenter named mahina says something along the lines of “Most (98% of) women would be better off learning how to submit to their husbands”. Tarnishedsofia, whether he knew it or not, checks the first box for typical feminine arguing by saying the equivalent of “But I’m not like that”. Of course you shouldn’t be submitting if it’s not in your nature and if you aren’t an actual woman anyway. Emperor Lu Bu, who is an openly very aggressive guy (seen the blog), finds that irritating. That, and tarnishedsofia’s “I feel sorry for you. Truly”. Hey, we all know that when a woman says she feels sorry for you, she actually wishes you were run over by a truck, so I can’t blame him for misunderstanding.

    If I didn’t know tarnishedsofia any better, I’d say it was just a typical aggressive vs. passive-aggressive argument.

    Maybe Sofia meant it well, but when you check off too many boxes for typical feminine/vaguely feminist arguing, this is what happens.

    Is it ok to blow up at people who seem that way? Nah, I would strive not to. They just have a different opinion. However, some passive-aggressive creeps do use this to their advantage. They pretend they haven’t got an aggressive bone in their body, and thus can always count on whiteknights to defend them, when the other person sniffs them out and dishes out a verbal attack. Because of this, I would prefer not to defend anyone in such a situation either. If they really are as calm as Buddha, they don’t need protection from verbal attacks. And if they were passive-aggressive, then they don’t deserve to be defended 🙂

    • First, Emma, let me say thank you for referring to me as “he”. It actually means a lot to me!

      I’d like to point out though, that I initially disagreed with mahina because of how I thought of submissiveness (as the emotional/mental abuse that I heard described as “submissiveness”). In the same comment though, I acknowledged that couples can do what they want, so long as both partners agree to it. I mean, it doesn’t affect me…what do I care, if nobody is getting hurt?

      I actually *was* concerned that my words might come off as passive aggressive, just as you say. Without facial expressions, tone, voice inflection…yeah, I sometimes find it hard to communicate online. But I didn’t say anything with a double meaning, or anything I wouldn’t say to Lu Bu’s face. I’m honest to a fault, and don’t believe in mincing words…but I also only say what I really mean. Unless they’re used in dirty jokes, I *loathe* double meanings.

      Whenever I meet a sexist, racist, ableist, etc I truly feel bad for them. It is like meeting someone with a hole in their heart or soul. How can one go through life thinking that an entire group is inferior and deserves less? It makes me weep for humanity…

      “If they really are as calm as Buddha they don’t need protection from verbal attacks.”
      Yes, precisely! I wasn’t as calm as Buddha (it was more a feeling of smashing my head on a brick wall, coupled with intense pity) but I certainly didn’t need “protection” from Lu Bu’s words. I am happy that Liz and Sasha commented as well…but if they had not, I’d have been just as fine going on with my life. Despite Lu Bu’s parting remark, “not getting the last word” doesn’t affect me. After all, I have a mother and 3 sisters: Getting the last word in is NOT something I’ve ever been able to do! 😉

      • About sixty minutes ago I left an online discussion that threatened to get ugly. The person I was debating with started getting very pissy and sarcastic, and I saw no good would come of continuing. So I just said “I’m leaving” and I did. I haven’t been back to see how it worked out.

        Being able to forfeit the last word is very refreshing.

      • I saw your reason for reacting to the submissiveness comment, but you only explained it later in your conversation with Emperor Lu Bu. That’s why it looked like a NAWALT argument at first, but wasn’t. My mistake (the point it still the same though, the first impression can be damning).

        As for your pity, lol, you’re gonna get it thrown back in your face more than once. Not saying that with malice 😉 . But when someone says they truly pity a hateful person, it will inevitably sound to them as “You’re so angry. And unhappy. And evil. I’m so much better than you”. I feel real pity for hateful folks often too (my stepfather hated me intensely, it offended me somewhat, but in the long run I felt pity and not hate), but in a way, I also realize my pity is wasted and they would take it as an insult… It is too often used to invalidate someone’s arguments or feelings. I mean, you wouldn’t like it if someone pitied you because they think you’re a confused girl who thinks she’s a boy, right? So pity is a tricky thing.. If I pity someone because of the views they hold, I would only tell them “I pity you” if I wanted to invalidate their point of view and make them feel bad. If I actually wanted to alleviate their suffering, whatever it was, I’d probably ask them questions, talk about why they think the way they think.

        The only times I admitted feeling sorry for someone and didn’t regret it was when the person really wanted to be helped or comforted, and wasn’t too proud to receive help or comfort.

        • Hey Emma.

          Yeah, I thought maybe you didn’t see my reasoning at first…it’s cool. I just was unaware that there were so many different “ways” to be considered submissive.

          And yes, I’ve already had people (in real life and online) who’ve said “I’m sorry you’re so confused” or “I pity you for not feeling at home in your body”. But you know what? I have never felt they they are being cruel/mean/rude by saying such things…It *is* confusing, and I *do* wish I was at home in my body. Maybe I’m really weird, but if someone says they truly pity me for something like that…that’s their prerogative, and I may or may not agree with them.

          I’d *never* say that someone is inferior to me because of their beliefs. I can be intolerant of hurtful beliefs (racism, sexism, etc) and still respect the person as a person…no superiority complex required! Using such terminology to invalidate others is for those unskilled in debating.

          Again, I think part of the problem with online communications is the complete lack of facial expressions, gestures, and voice patterns. You can never really tell *how* someone is talking to you… 😦

      • Sophia: “I think part of the problem with online communications is the complete lack of facial expressions, gestures, and voice patterns. You can never really tell *how* someone is talking to you”

        Poe’s law is the one that usually gets me. My sense of humor is often too sarcastic for the internet.

    • The discussion/argument was about the issues raised here, so as you can imagine it got pretty overwrought. The mental exhaustion wrought on me by the ugliness that manifests itself in online discussions is something that, at age 40, I no longer bounce back from as easily as I once did. 😉 Sometimes I still relish the fight. At other times, concession is the better part of valor. Or so I tell myself.

  7. “Society (meaning guys and girls) do NOT defend the guy in a guy vs girl fight. EVER. A girl can be beating a guy INTO THE FUCKING GROUND and ‘oh he must have deserved it’, but a guy even has an argument with a girl and the whole world turns against him.” This is true, but doesn’t mean it is right or justified…or even that I’d approve of it if it worked out to my advantage.

    Here’s a post I did a number of weeks ago about this topic, including my thoughts on gendered DV:

    http://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/deserving-of-protection/

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