I want to start off by saying so great ideas where thrown out with my last post by all the commentators, I want to continue that discussion with ideas on trying to define some of the sub-movements within the overarching sphere.

First, I think some of my commentators think I hate MRA, I do NOT.  I actually consider myself partly one.  MGTOW kind of foremost because I have all but essentially pulled out of the dating scene (despite flirting with my coworkers) but I have long been sympathetic to the cause of MRA.  So no, I do not hate them, and consider myself one.

Without further ado, a work in progress I am attempting to put together:


I made up this diagram, and it is missing some areas, I am not all knowing, and not going to pretend I am, so any ideas or discussion about what might fit where, all ears.  I am after truth here, not trying to be a wannabe badass.

I liked the Observer’s name of Dark Enlightenment, so I am using that for the hybrid of MGTOW/MRA, Player Lawyer I could not think of anything other than an archtype that if it exists is likely very rare.  Some brought up the red pill marriage crew, which I think would fit in the MGTOW/PUA hybrid because they are not following standard norms (mgtow style) but they are reaping benefits of sex with women (pua style)

I don’t know what the center would be.

Again, all of this is a very sliding scale of things.  But I do believe within the sphere there are definite different styles and messages that are being put forth.


11 thoughts on “MRA, MGTOW, PUA pt 2

  1. I didn’t come up with the name “Dark Enlightenment”; it was already in use by the more extreme people on the spectrum the name encompasses. Alternative names for those on this spectrum include “alternative right” (from the flagship online publication, and of course, “Reactionary”.

    A *lot* of the things most people take for granted these days are questioned by the alt-right.

    Aurini is an example of one of the more mainstream and approachable people on this sliding scale, so I’ll go off some of his positions. You can examine his videos and his blog for more:

    -He questions whether democracy is the best form of government, and professes himself to be a monarchist/anarcho-capitalist.
    -Equality is a myth, people are unequal based on race, sex, etc, and the prusuit of such is obviously destructive to society.
    -The MRA is ultimately leftist and their brand of feminism in reverse disgusts him. It’s clear from the whole kerfuffle over AVFM right now that a schism is happening in the MRM, validating his criticism. Even Agent Orange has come out to speak against the co-option of AVFM.
    -And so forth.

    Now, Aurini is more approachable. On the more extreme side of the alt-right, you get HBD theorists, white nationalists, Edenists, and other forms of genetic determinists who challenge the common notion that everything these days is based on socioeconomic effects.

    It’s not hard to see why it’s called the “dark enlgihtenment”, because the things we talk about would get us busted by the Cathedral (the monolithic leftist apparatus consisting of the state, universities, media, etc) in no time were they to go public at the moment.

    A couple of more approachable alt-right authors in the manosphere include:

    -Matt Forney
    -Bill Powell

    These folks should be able to let you frame a general mindset of us and our positions.

  2. There’s also variation within the basic groups.

    Call it a third dimension – isolated individualist versus socially-integrated cooperator.

    An individualist PUA might have a low sex drive, and so would use his pick-up skills rarely; a socially-integrated PUA would have a notch count in the hundreds.

    An isolated MRA would post about issues on a blog; a socially-integrated MRA would be engaged in local lobbying and politics.

    An isolated MGTOW would live in a shack in Montana or Alaska. An integrated MGTOW would have a circle of bros with whom he would play video games.

  3. A characteristic I’ve noticed with many MGTOWs is defensiveness about their personal masculine code of honor/values/morals/ethics. They’re not fighting the red pill. Rather, the red pill reveals to them the difficulty of fighting their way upstream for what they believe. PUAs who navigate with the flow mock these MGTOWs for going against the current despite knowing as fellow red pillers which way the water flows.

    There is also the anti-Churchian Christian group. I don’t know too much about them, but they seem to have a strong presence.

      • It goes to the warnings by Rollo and others about the Feminine Imperative and red-pill women. The red pill has points in common across demographics, but women have their version of the red pill that is not the same as men’s red pill. The women’s red pill has a feminine orientation. I respect red-pill women and support their goals. But it behooves red-pill men to recognize that red-pill women, for the most part, are not supporting men’s interests exclusively but rather a resetting of gender rules in order to nurture a healthier complementary male-female culture. A few exceptional red-pill women champion men’s interests without a complementarian male-female emphasis (GirlWritesWhat, Emma the Emo come to mind), but they are still women with a feminine orientation.

        To answer your question, red-pill men share a masculine orientation. From there, we split off. Many red-pill men want a similar gender rules reset as red-pill women, albeit from a masculine orientation. Other red-pill men, ie, PUAs, prefer instead to maximize their benefit with gender conditions as they are. Like the complementarian red pill, the PUA red pill is based on male-female relations.

        The MGTOW red pill is different. MGTOWs share the masculine orientation with other red-pill men. A lot of the self-improvement and empowerment advice is the same across the Manosphere. But MGTOW is introverted and eschews complementarian and PUA male-female goals. The complementarian and PUA red pills both require up front compromise in some form with women. In other words, the other red pills incorporate women into their codes. As opposed to the others’ basis in male-female relations, the MGTOW red pill is based on not compromising on living life on my terms – my personal masculine code.

        MGTOW tends to asceticism, but it’s not asexual. Desire and the shared masculine orientation mean MGTOWs can and do compromise and cross into the other red pill circles.

        • This was good man. I agree, it reminds me of a friend I was talking to about he said even redpill women basically are still women at heart and they it to BENEFIT them. Once I kind of re-realized that, a lot of the red pill women makes sense.

          MGTOW reminds me of monks, and we all know monks are badass.

      • Red-pill women-endorsed manhood is certainly preferred to feminist women-endorsed manhood, but the red-pill version also requires internalizing an identity defined outside the self.

        First principles:

        For PUAs, and to a lesser extent complementarians, ‘Just be yourself’ is the blue pill that must be thrown up in order to do the self-improvement needed to attract and hold onto women.

        For MGTOWs, ‘Be myself’ is the credo at the heart of self-improvement.

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