The difference between MGTOW MRA PUA

This is a really important discussing I have been mulling over in my mind.  If you have any comments on my breakdown of them, let me know.  I actually kind of hate acronyms, but they get thrown around a lot, so I will quickly define them, before really launching into it.

MGTOW-Men going their own way

MRA- mens rights activist

PUA- pick up artist

 

Their general attitude and concerns:

The easiest way to visualize these three, is to think of it as a sliding scale, on one side is the PUA, the opposite end is the MRA, and MGTOW is in the middle.

PUA———–MGOTW———MRA

This is based on their professed attitude towards women among other things.  The PUA is all about slamming out as many women as he can, he does not ‘hate’ women in any capacity other than perhaps their occasional stupidity, because women are the source of their notches and their kicks.  PUA primary concern is as much sex with as many girls as possible.

MGTOW is in the middle, they have an inherent distrust of women, until proven otherwise which is rare.  As per based on their name, they are quite content going through life without a women, this does not mean they are gay.  Most MGTOW will spend a day or night with a girl if she seems decent, but it by no means is ANY priority, more of it just happens.  MGTOW primary concern is living their own life, without a women dragging it down.

MRA are perhaps the most anti-women, they have a very high distrust of women, and their hatred is palpable.  What is important to note, is both MRA and MGTOW likely did NOT grow up hating women, but were forced to reexamine their views.  Anyone growing up hating women likely became a PUA, ironically.  MRA primary concern is the social injustice of male/female.

Where did these three come from?

Typically there is a definite stereotype that all three of these variously hail from.  Remember this is a counter culture movement, so they are all KIND OF the same, but the more time you spent in the culture, the differences become obvious.

PUA: Was a lesser alpha, or a wannabealpha in high school, likely the football team quarterback’s friend.  Someone who was not the #1, but bathed in this aura.  Thus he grew up with some attention, but left him desiring more.  Likely bodybuilder types now, if they work out.

MGTOW:  Likely an outsider group growing up.  Not in the main social scene, but not its victims either.  Even at a younger age showed a bit of a disdain for the system, not that into images (as much as a high schooler could be), typically a small core group that they never really deviated from.  Likely functional athletes if they work out (endurance mixed with weights)

MRA: Most likely a victim in high school, probably of high intellect, such as someone on a debate.  He was smart, but victimized for it.  Your very typical beta, follows all the rules, and hopes to get ahead by them.  Unlikely to work out, but if they do typically joggers.

Examples of them on the internet and how I went through them  :

When I first found the scene about 2 years ago it kind of blew my mind.  I was desperate for answers as to why this girl broke my heart and my life was nearly fucked over by a single girl, what did I do wrong, ‘what did women want’ and so on.  The first site I found actually no longer exists, but he was a hybrid between PUA and MGTOW, it was a guy named shark and his website solvemygirlproblems.

It was revolutionary to me, he started with the premise that girls are inherently untrustworth, bitchy, and liable to backstab unless kept in line.  He had a revolutionary idea: TO LIVE FOR YOURSELF.  To someone lost in the desert of society, utterly abandoned because badasses arent susposed to cry or have girl problems it was a draught of much needed liquid for my thirst.  Each post was filled with both anger, and a will to triumph, the odds were against us as men, but we alone knew what it was like to dig deep amidst overwhelming odds and press on.

I found cheateau heratise and rationale male pretty soon after, they are both HARD on the PUA side of the spectrum.  Their art was that of seemingly stupid and unconventional tactics supposedly designed to attract woman for the slamming.  I was like ‘well, what the hell, my prior shit got me rocked, so lets try it.’  And you know what?  It works.  Much to feminists chagrin.  I could be this dismissive jerk, and the girls were coming in.

Meanwhile, I would see post and comments not about getting girls but about the societal injustices fraught in our society.  About the more men in jail.  The unfairness of marriage, of child support, of living your life for the women.  And they resonated with me, because I had seen much injustice in those around me at the hands of women and society.  These are the MRA people.   There are few devoted MRA sites, but MRAs are sprinkled around.

 

Here is the conclusions, and a very important part of the whole discussion.

Loyalty:

I will start with MRA first.  Both the MRA and the MGTOW typically were screwed to one degree or another by girls, (admittedly by often their own lack of how women actually are), but the people who go into MRA often take it harder, or had the harder reality slapping them in the face.

I am going to state it bluntly:  I think the MRA are totally justified in their anger, and their goals, but I do not particularly trust MRA and think they are one night of sex away from abandoning their movement.  A big part of it is think about their past, these are likely the guys that did not get much attention, and any attention was likely negative.  Somehow they got a girl, subsequently hurt, and now rage against the system, but all it will take is one girl ‘oh, come here you…’ and suddenly all their professed anger is gone.  The strongest of the rationilizers.

Again, I 100% support their mission of social injustice, I just do not think it has any teeth behind it unfortunately, and I believe in most cases the anger is just their response of no girl liking them.  Once a girl likes them, they are off the boat.  Loyalty: Traitorous

PUAs are on the other end, they are up front, their one goal is to pump and dump as many girls as they can.  If amidst their STD dodging they find ‘the one’ they will try to marry her.  The irony of course is high here, but again, I am simply stating how it is.  Clubs are the typical location of PUA, or the braver ones try street pickups.

PUA do no carry the anger of MGTOW or MRA, because they were never really screwed by girls, they never got all the attention their true alpha friends got, but they got a taste of it, and want more.  Very likely sex addicts based on their goal.  Typically well adjusted, but again, based on their goals likely to only be a lesser alpha at best, as a real alpha would not have to resort to tactics, or even ‘think’ about what he is doing.  I do not want to make it sound like their stuff doesnt work, it totally does, and it VERY useful for understanding girls.

One major complaint I have about the PUA is despite all three group essentially being on the same side, they are VERY quick to demonize MGTOW and MRA.  Kind of a latent high school mentality, by bashing someone else down, it makes them look so much ‘cooler’.  Often you will see statements ‘you are just upset you cant get any’ or ‘unsuccessful with women’ its ironic how these are the exact same epithets FEMINISTS use.  Ahh, the irony.  I can’t speak for all MGTOW (which is what I consider myself) but I am not ‘unsuccessful’ with women, I actually have success when I try, but I truly don’t care to bother with how fucked up modern girls are.  Nor do I really want the host of diseases they carry.

These PUA are your ‘bros’ at frats.  Loyalty: ‘Loyal’ if no girl is around, will slit your throat once she is…thus Traitorous

Last is the MGTOW, the easiest way to understand these type is think back to their earlier life, they were not really in the scene, not victors of it, and not victims of it. Because they gave some woman a chance and were hurt badly they are not in a rush to get back to it, thus they go back to their outsider mentality.  Lo and behold that they find…its actually a pretty nice place to be.  Girls are dumb as hell, but the MGTOW doesnt have to even talk to her, the MRA injustices are certainly true, but generally escapable by the simple act of not interacting with women.

I think ‘modern girls’ are severely lacking in intellect, not because their brains are incapable of thinking, but that simply society does not require them to really ‘think’ at all, thus they are not forced to know ANYTHING other than subtly manipulating guys.

The MGTOW essentially have come to terms with the situation in front of them.  Their see the injustice the MRA see, and they see the hypocrisy of women’s stated desires vs their real desires PUA see.  MGTOW are not driven by racking up notch counts, nor do they have the supposed passion but lack of will the MRA have.

MGTOW have seen reality from the bottom, been fucked, taken advantage of, or otherwise screwed by hands that were eitehr female, or under female control. They realize the game is against them, and instead of playing it like the PUA to set a high score, they essential say, ‘fuck this, I am going to live my own life.  If a girl is there, fine, but I have damn high standards, because I do not need a girl to “make my life complete”.  I am living my own damn life by my rules.’

MGTOW are not in the business of screwing their fellow man, mainly because for the most part have written off nearly a whole sex, so they need allies somewhere.  They are not the backstabbers of MRA who claim to be on your side until a girl bats an eye at them, nor are they the bros who will have a beer with you, but throw you down to prove to the latest whore how sick they are.  They are just living.  And just want to be left the fuck alone.

Loyalty: High

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50 thoughts on “The difference between MGTOW MRA PUA

  1. You certainly put in a lot of work here and there’s a lot of interesting thoughts to pour over and i will have to give it a second indepth read rather than a gloss over but i just wanted to clarrify that i would also consider myself an MRA, and even tho i have sex, i’m not about to abandon the cause of inequality. (tho i’d rather call myself a humanist instead of an MRA or puke feminist).

    There are many married men in the MRA camp and many red pill women, both single/divorced/married. MRA’s come from all walks and are simply pushing back against feminism for a multitude of reasons. Some women seek real change in equality, others want a reversion to traditionalism, some are just worried feminism went to far and they’ll be caught in the blowback.

    If i end up with a woman and choose to stay in a solid relationship (of course only with a woman who demonstrates and adheres to red pill leanings) i won’t suddenly stop championing equality under the law for mens reproductive rights, family courts, access to children and divorce rape through alimony and false accusations of abuse or rape.

    But a good overall start, something which commenters should expand upon and revise as time goes on.

      • EK, this is an excellent article and I agree on all points. Regarding PUA, I googled “failed pickup artists”. Maybe some of them do OK, but many don’t.. with the very real risk of a False Rape Accusation, “success” could easily turn into a catastrophic failure. If I were single again and wanted to experience the touch of a woman I would go with a highly reviewed GFE escort or a model offering foot fetish (I like feet). It is an incredible bargain compared with the misery and risk of dating and relationships. The hot young woman is on call when you need her for a fair price.

          • EK, lots of guys like feet. Sucking a woman’s toes is relaxing and sensual at the same time Women love it too. . It is listed as BDSM/Fetish on the web. Take a look at Backpage. They now have foot fetish parties, you can find them in New York and Miami and other cities. It is totally legal.

          • EK, as a follow-up, here’s an article from Ask Men
            http://www.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_200/226_love_tip.html
            Some guys get freaked out at the idea of a women’s foot in their mouth but for guys who love feet, it is wonderful. It is exciting and relaxing at the same time. Unless a woman is extremely ticklish they LOVE having their feet kissed and their toes sucked. Unless a girl has a cut on her foot or an open sore it is 100% safe for both parties. I have heard that for girls having their toes sucked it very sexually arousing and can also be relaxing. I had one girl fall asleep and I sucked her toes for 90 minutes. Amatuers do foot fetish for $80 per hour (you can find them on Backpage under Domiation and Fetish) . Drop dead gorgeous girls do it for $200 per hour. You can find them on Eros .com. You won’t get rushed either. I find hot, sweaty feet to be a turn on, while some guys like feet to be washed….Just Google “Why do men love Women’s feet” and you will get more information. .As I said, Foot Fetish parties are really big now and are totally legal and are held in NYC and other places. One of my best experiences was in a strip club in san Antonio. There was a tall blonde dancer. I paid for private sessions and she took off her tight shoes and shoved her hot sweaty toes into my mouth..that was heavenly…..

          • Not recently but I have in the past. No one works for free. If I were single I guess I could put an ad in Backpage or Craigslist and see if any women wanted their toes sucked and why if anyone responds.

  2. Hmm, an interesting read; I believe I once made a post on something similar along these lines. A few things I want to point out, though:

    -It is important to distinguish between two kinds of MGTOWs: firstly, the herd of bulls, men who simply do what they want, and secondly, the stereotypical cheetos-eating basement dweller who makes no effort to improve himself and uses the label as an excuse to cover up his own failings.

    -“Girls are dumb as hell, but the MGTOW doesnt have to even talk to her, the MRA injustices are certainly true, but generally escapable by the simple act of not interacting with women.”

    This is not possible, especially as time goes by. Men avoid marriage – more inane legislation gets passed to extract wealth from men, like Australia’s “mistress law” and common-law marriages around the western world. If MGTOWs keep on retreating and inane laws keep pushing, slavery will be the final result. You can’t avoid annoying women – even if you don’t interact with them, they’ll interact with YOU, like Donglegate proves.

    Happily, the whole system seems set to collapse any day now.

    -With regards to PUAs, you may want to read this: http://www.staresattheworld.com/2012/12/greshams-law-it-also-applies-to-sex-and-culture/

    -I personally do not believe I belong in either of the three camps by your definition, but more in the reactionary/alt-right/dark enlightenment camp, sex relations of which is only one part (so it doesn’t belong on the spectrum you’ve created).

    • That link regarding the “new Nash Equilibrium” is so true.
      I do not like the PUA realm one iota. There seems to be some sort of paradox in the PUA community that, although women are all whores who devalue themselves through sex, a man can never similarly devalue himself. That’s rubbish. The bar is far higher for a man, true, and some experience is appreciated but a man with a long history of chasing after skanky bitches is hardly something any girl (worth having) would consider a prize. Men aren’t the only ones who do “risk of flight” calculations when they’re looking for a keeper.

    • >-It is important to distinguish between two kinds of MGTOWs: firstly, the herd of bulls, men who simply do what they want, and secondly, the stereotypical cheetos-eating basement dweller who makes no effort to improve himself and uses the label as an excuse to cover up his own failings.

      The distinction might be pretty difficult to draw.

      Suppose, for example, an accountant decides to quit his job, move to Thailand, and practice martial arts for a year. After that year is up, he is a mediocre martial artist and unemployable at his old job.

      Is he a failure? He’s living in poverty! He’s got no way back to the middle class!

      Is he a success? Well, I’m not going to get in a fist fight with him! He’s much better at fighting than most of us.

      Or again, look at Fred Reed. He’s had adventures, and now he’s a mediocre humorist who writes Internet posts. Is he a failure? Is he a success?

      A lot of MGTOW are both failures and successes.

      • I like your last line. I think that sums up the overall view of society most MGTOW have, is ‘well fuck it, x,y,z are corrupt, so I dont care if I excel at that. But fighting is useful, so might as well learn that.’

  3. Hi Knight, I got your comment and came over to read.

    This is a good article, its a topic worth debating just for fun. I think the way you summarize each group is generally correct, but where I think it gets tricky is where you start generalizing about who makes up each group. It works for basic examples, but I’d say you’re likely to find all types of guys in each group. That applies to any categorizing really.

    As for myself, I’d put myself closest with the MGTOW generality, but like a venn diagram I have a little bit of everything. I think the methodology of the PUAs is proven to work, the MRAs have a legitimate point, and the MGTOWs are kind of stuck in the middle liable to go whichever route offers the best possibilities.

    Still on the other hand some PUAs are jerks who are shallow and superficial, some MRAs are too whiny or flaky, and some MGTOWs, like you say, might be rather more lazy than flexible.

    Like I said initially this is a nice topic to debate even for fun, problem is it usually descends into a swordfight as the worst from each group tries to take a seat on the throne to represent the best choice for men.

    • Hey, yeah it is interesting just seeing the comments this spawned. I added the groups more as a generality to be funny, I know all types exist everywhere. I actually would say MGTOW are closer to MRA than PUA probably.

  4. Good post and wonderful conversation starter. That said I think you’ve got it all wrong. The sliding scale of “How much they hate women” is just completely off base. The connection between PUA, MRA, and MGTOW isn’t how we view women, but how we view the system and laws surrounding relationships. PUA’s say “The system is broken, and I’m going to take advantage”. MRA’s say “The system is broken, and I’m going to fix it”. MGTOW say “The system is broken, and I’m not going to be part of it”

    Your post supports the idea that Men’s Rights Activists are Woman hatting Masculinists, just like Women’s rights Activists are Man hating Feminists. Neither of these caricatures is accurate. Dividing into armed camps and hating the “evil other” that isn’t in your camp will just lead to bloodshed. This is what the feminists did, and why it’s a hate group. MRA’s are actively trying to avoid that dynamic (with limited success). This can be seen with AVFM’s recent change from “Men’s Rights Movement” to “Men’s Human Rights Movement”

    As for the distinctions on how people become PUA, MRA, or MGTOW. I don’t see a connection to how they where treated in HS. All three groups have the full range from geeks to jocks. Neckbeards to models. Your reaction to the problem is about how you where introduced to it. Catching onto the problems by finding success as a PUA will reinforce your status as PUA. MRA and MGTOW are both reactions to being discarded like a worn out utility object. Some rally against it, and some just give up.

    • Thanks for the comment, I hope you dont think that scale was a ‘how much they hate women’ because it was not, it is certainly ABOUT women though, because how could it not be? PUA do not hate women, MGTOW distrust/avoid women, and MRA dislike/hate women, but I think you are wrong to think ‘hate’ is something bad. When hate is at an injustice, there is nothing wrong with it.

      • How could it not be about women?

        That was my point, it’s not about women. It’s about the system surrounding relationships, not the individuals within that system. Women are just people looking out for their own best interests as normal people do. Women are not the problem, the system that incentives and rewards them for behaving badly is.

  5. MGTOW-Men going their own way

    MRA- mens rights activist

    PUA- pick up artist

    I’d add red pill marriage crew to that list. There’s as many points of views as bloggers and posters, of course.

    • I agree the red pill marriage guy are a sector of the manosphere that’s growing. Two that come to mind are Athol’s and Red Pill Room. Both of them married man that integrated the red pill and want success for themselves, their marriage and their kids. Make the next generation of no nonsense crap, bypass feminism don’t pass by start and claim 200$. Be able to stand on their own.

      Maybe the world is going to crap but they want they’re own genes and viewpoint to continue to propagate and be successful. The only finishing measure of success when dying, is how many yourself with your genes and idea are out there and can continue walking forward.

      • I mentioned this distinction in another post, but thought I’d quickly clear something up about the Rational (not “Rationale”) Male – he’s not a PUA, though similar dogmas make us (MGOOW) look similarly. If anything, RM is a MGHOW that entered the Red Pill Husband camp by default when he married.

        His Matrix tagline is a major clue to that fact.

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  7. Thanks for this, I’ve always wondered what the minute differences were. The funny thing is, I really sympathize with the school background you wrote up for the MRA, but live my life similar to the MGTOW.

    Of course, that’s only comparable on the simplest level since I’m not a male. But I enjoy being single, and absolutely hated most of the kids I went to school with due to how they treated us goody-two shoes geeks/nerds.

    Once again, thanks for this EK.

  8. MRA folks have major anger issues not just among women but men also. I went an MRA site called avoiceformen.com. I can tell you that anger is there against even nonfemnist. Lots of cursing, insult and bashing. I gave a rating to one of the moderator and he decided to ban me. The funny thing the top was only health related. Also it seems many MRA are actually Atheist. In the past I used to chat in an atheist chatroom on irc and they do have similar qualities other than not liking women. I also believe most MRA couldn’t get laid or that they had difficultly. They talk about right to free speech but apparently only by their rules. These people are no better than the femenist. I wish both groups would just disappear. Life is too short to be angry so long.

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  10. Your thoughts are interesting but way too personal. Describing what a MRA or a PUA was in school doesn’t really help. You can have said that introverts go to MRAs yadda yadda.
    MRAs are not just places of anger. MRAs are the militants of this counter culture and thus are at the frontlines. Their attitude reflects this, but do not mistake it for anger.

    • Maybe you consider yourself an MRA, I ask you think long and hard about this, they are trying to beat the system at its own game – trying to out women the women as it were- its not going to happen.

      • Not true everywhere. A father’s rights group helped push for and got the law changed so Denmark, one of the most feminized countries in the world, now by default has shared custody (50/50). Before you were lucky to get every other weekend, if the mother permitted it. Mind you, it helps to be the most egalitarian nation on earth with a keener sense on injustice in general and that helped things along too. Our women are often obnoxious, but they aren’t as prone to the whole victim bullshit that the American & Canadian women seem so fond of. Most women here also supports a woman’s free will to sell her body, should she choose to do so (except the radfems and socialists, which are usually one and the same).

        Oh, and MRAs don’t necessarily dislike or hate women. Read some Warren Farrell. He’s like our spiritual “leader” and he loves women. I love my Filipino wife and her Filipino girlfriends are awesome ladies. If I dislike (some) women, it’s the local Danish harpies 😋

        MGTOWs though generally have the highest distrust of women and often view all of them in a pretty sick way. MRAs know there are great women out there, we’d just wish there were more of them and that the laws didn’t encourage shitty behavior or reward them for leaving their great husbands. Sandman (MGTOW) on YouTube has a great video about “Why do women leave great husbands”. Luckily it only applies to western women, so I’m not worried 😀

          • I wouldn’t consider myself an activist per se, as I see that as taking credit for more than I do, but simply a supporter and advocate for now. Other’s might call me an MRA, which is fine. I’ll just look at the A being Advocate, rather than Activist 😉

            MRAs are like the front line troops and so they are more intense. Some seem very bitter, and I get that, but as a rational anti-theist who’s most admired intellectual is Richard Dawkins, I think it would suit some MRAs to calm down their rhetoric and not sound so much like those they are fighting thus becoming an easier target and being more easily dismissed as haters.

            I do plan to engage more in the future, since politics are generally shit, so focusing on singular issues makes more sense to me. I’m very much about equality, so I’d call myself an “equity” feminist as well, in Christina Hoff Sommers definition, ie. actual equality of opportunity, not outcome.

            It would be great if there was one unifying equality movement, but humans are inherently selfish, so I doubt that’s gonna happen in our lifetime.
            I like the French Revolutionary slogan “Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood” (not saying I agree with French politicians, and I’m not exactly following it).
            A French guy on YouTube told me that feminism there is so bad now that criticizing a woman’s views in a political TV debate is seen as not PC. I digress, but I think you get the idea.

            Freedom of speech means nothing if people are afraid to speak out for fear of harassment, labelling and discrimination like that exerted by modern feminists, Social Justice Warriors and others.

          • I worry though that typical MRA guys are the type feminists hold up and redicule, ‘oh look at this white guy thinking the deck is stacked against him!” its an easy target to attack.

          • The MRAs are sincere and well intentioned. But I think the deck IS stacked against them. Women are about 52% of the electorate. They have ALL the clout. The only way to win the game is to NOT play. You can’t beat the casino

          • EK, the last time I placed a bet was 1984 and it was a few bucks on blackjact in Vegas. I took a lot of statistics classes and realized that gambling was a bad deal. Also, I am part Irish and we have addictive personalities so I don’t smoke, drink or gamble. Easier that way. I now live on the East Coast. I like Atlantic City. It is fun to watch the suckers lose. Lots of hookers and strip clubs there. They now have casinos in Philly and Baltimore which are hurting Atlantic City. One of my favorite movies is “Atlatic City” with Burt Lancaster and Susan Sarandon. Great show.

  11. Interesting post EK. I like that you brought up loyalty, it seems to me, that some of the MRA associated men still want to believe the Disney myth. What I mean is, for some of them, they profess to see the inherent tendencies of women. Yet when a woman speaks they are charmed too easily. I noticed that on AVFM forums. I think many MRA Advocate/activists (as great as the cause they align with is) have white knight
    Alter egos. They see the value of the “pill” but don’t really want to swallow it. I am still working on where I fit in. Thanks for posting!

  12. Out of the 3 of them, the MRA is the most persecuted not just by feminists, but by other PUAs and MGTOWs alike. I’ve even seen PUAs and MGTOWs send Paul Elam death threats for daring to be a Men’s Rights Activist.

    By the way, I’m a MRA and I don’t hate women. I don’t know any MRA that does.

      • Not really. If anything, the fact that many (I won’t say most because I don’t know) are in relationships and/or married and still fight for men’s rights tells me that they’ve got there shit together.

        Granted, I will say that there are examples of people in the manosphere that have lost the plot. The guy who ran The Spearhead, WF Price, abandoned ship after marrying a feminist, not a hot girl.

  13. As a MGTOW, kudos for a fair portrayal in your piece. I agree with many of your sentiments, but I would rate the three factions a bit different. I would list it as:
    MRA – PUA – MGTOW
    Notice that this coincides with your loyalty scale. The MRA are concerned with fair marriages and legal concerns, rendering them the closest to the fires of social institutions and the existing misandric worldview. PUA’s aren’t concerned with marriage or legal aspects so much as perceived social status and sex; this renders them more as “enjoying the decline” of society rather than complaining as the MRA’s do. The furthest from the current society are the MGTOW, who have utterly rejected it (and rightly so). MGTOW operates on the War Games principle: “the only way to win is not to play”. As a MGTOW, I have no use for female anything, and took command of basically what has become a sovereign nation: myself. Lastly, I will point out that I began as a PUA, met “the one”, got screwed, became MRA, realized it was feminism 2.0, and landed very happily in MGTOW. Here’s the truth: The fastest route to misogyny is putting your faith in a woman. If that comes off as sexist or is offensive, I don’t care, and neither does anyone else (really).

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